Episode Transcript
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Hey. Hey. Welcome back to working Out. God.
We are back today. Me and BE are in the house and we are chatting over a book that we have read. So today we're going to dive right in to discussing this book called Chasing the Dragon by Jackie Pullinger that we've been reading over the season and just reflecting on. And it's in line with the theme for the season, which is faith on the front lines.
And we're just going to get into it and just. Giracio, our honest reflections from what we learned from the book.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So I chose this book, and if I'm honest with you, it wasn't any particular reason, but I'd heard a lot about Jackie Pullinger. I'd seen she doesn't do a lot of interviews or get involved in, you know, many kind of church events or anything like that.
But I had seen her during COVID and. And she was on, you know, online meeting, and I thought, oh, this woman is really interesting.
And then the Holy Spirit. When we were brainstorming for this season, you know, we wanted to potentially look at the world of finance, but Holy Spirit led us to look at social impact and the third sector. And it was the Holy Spirit that actually bought into Remembrance Jackie Pullinger for me. So I've never read any her books. I know very little about her history. And I thought, okay, fine, let's go for it.
What a book.
What do you think, T? Because I've got my thought that I could keep talking to you. Tell me first, because I was obviously the one that said, okay, let's do this book. You grabbed your copy? I got my copy. I've got bits underlined here, but what are your thoughts and reflections?
[00:02:17] Speaker A: Yeah, there was a lot to take from this book, to be honest. I did find myself, like, folding pages not to mark where I was, but just to remember the pages so I could go back on just certain things that stood out to me on those pages. So there was quite a lot in there, and it did really challenge me significantly in many ways. There was a lot to reflect on, which we're. We're going to get right into.
But I think maybe the first biggest thing for me from the book is, is we go to page 22 of the book and there's a. There's a statement in there where Jackie talks about how she simply had to follow wherever God led her.
So as a bit of background, basically, it's like she's called to essentially the most dangerous territory in Hong Kong.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: So. And she just kind of goes. She Picks up and she goes. There's no plan.
There's no money.
There's no money. There's. There's nothing specifically that she has other than a calling from God. And she picks up her stuff and she goes there and just kind of follows God's lead. And so I think the first biggest takeaway I had was that she had the calling without full clarity. And I think this is a key thing for me because I think a lot of the time we can have the calling. But most people that I've kind of read their books or just heard their stories, they usually don't have the detailed roadmap of the steps in between or what's going to happen next. But I think hers was almost like a heightened case of this where, like, she didn't even know what was really going to happen the next day. So a lot of the stories, just honestly living by faith and not even being, like, fully equipped from, like a, you know, like a vocation point of view in terms of, like, having specific skill sets. Like, she'd go into, like, situations where people needed healing and she'd be like, I will pray for you. Like, she didn't. She wasn't a doctor. She didn't, you know, she didn't have the exact kind of background, I guess, from a vocation point of view
[00:04:37] Speaker B: that
[00:04:37] Speaker A: she could just rely on. And I think that's something that I personally always relied on. It's just like, oh, okay, I have these skills, I have these passions. I know I'm good at this. And that kind of gives you a little bit more security to kind of step into things that God has called you to when they are aligned, but when they're not specifically aligned. I think that's a whole new level of faith and also just obedience. And I think that's what challenged me a lot, is the obedience that she took. It must have been scary because. Because it couldn't have been easy to just do what she did. So I think that was really encouraging. And it wasn't like it started like her story started with her doing these radical crusades or things like that, but she just took one step at a time. And then by the end of the book, which, as we chat more about it, you'll see just so many moments where she just had a huge impact on the people that she was encountering and working with. So I think that was the first thing for me from early on in the book. It was like, I think, first chapter,
[00:05:46] Speaker B: I mean, I. I would completely second that because page 22 is exactly where I've got all these scribbles on. As soon as I got to that bit, I was hooked. And I was like, okay, this is going to be an interesting read. And I'm, I think we touched upon it in our first episode in this season, but I'm just going to read it out. Actually, our listeners, you know, do go get the book.
Basically she's talking to, I guess, a mentor or a good kind of faith friend of hers.
And you know, she's been applying for these jobs or opportunities to go and become a missionary and has had no answer. And so this individual Richard is the most challenging person. I mean, reading what he said, I was like, kind of like, what, are you crazy? Why would you suggest this? But he basically says to her, if God is telling you to go, better go.
And he continued to say that, you know, you can't lose if you put yourself completely in God's hands, you know, and he was quite serious because if he doesn't want you to get on the ship, he is quite able to stop you or to make the ship go anywhere in the world.
And she indulges her own visions and thinking that she's going to be like St. Paul and might end up on a little desert island, lived with one person. But obviously the Lord had a bigger plan for her and a bigger community group to reach.
But it's quite true because the book reminds us that that is exactly what the Lord asked of Abraham. That the Lord said to Abraham, you know, leave your family, leave the land that you're in and go. Go where?
You know, the Lord didn't just say to him that I'm taking you here and here and here, he just said, you know, go. And Abraham did. And I think, I know I'm guilty of this, that in different seasons of my life where I felt the Lord leading me into a new space, into a new situation, into a new opportunity, I want the roadmap. I want to know, where are we going? Who are we going with? How much is this going to cost?
How long is this going to take? But actually reading her book actually brings me, has brought me back to the fundamentals of how our faith works and what obedience looks like with the Lord. And if the Lord has placed something on any of our hearts, it's. We're not supposed to be in the business of saying, okay, happy to do this if you give me a full business plan, a full seven year plan of what lies ahead.
Actually, if the Lord has laid something on our heart and we trust The Lord. That's the second theme that actually really came through for me in this book is trust. And trust on a whole nother level from something as small as rice and food that they were trusting the Lord for to, you know, finances and resources.
And as Richard says, that you can't lose if you put yourself completely in God's hands.
So that was a big keep reading Beulah moment when I got to this part of the book.
[00:09:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I did want to quickly touch on you mentioning Abraham. We, for the listeners, have not discussed our personal reflections on the book yet, but I literally had that same written down as well, that it was so similar to Abraham in Genesis, where God just goes, go to the land, I will show you. Very vague, very vague. Like, I think that would make me so incredibly nervous. Go to the land, I will show you. You know, and that's essentially what happens to Jackie. And the obedience that she had in that kind of situation is really, really. Has really, really challenged me.
Yeah.
So, yeah, the book starts pretty strong.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: It is absolutely. And that. I think that's what it is. So the first theme, I guess, is for those of us, you know, what does obedience? What does go into the unknown look like? And this book really does break that down.
And I guess the second theme is the bit about trust, you know, because she went with what she had and she stayed there for decades.
Not going with resources for a decade, but it was a daily, a monthly, a yearly relying Lord, trusting the Lord with, you know, one the resources to even how she was led to find people or to go into spaces or areas or, you know, very uncomfortable clubs and underground brothels and all of these things. You know, how in tune and sensitive she was for the Holy Spirit to lead her into places and spaces and in front of people that she trusted.
You know, I guess it's that fine tuning as you walk with the Lord to hear Him. And so when he says, you know, lean on, not on your own understanding, but to trust him and to allow the Lord to lead you into conversations, into places, in environments that he has already gone ahead. He needs you to be there to outwork what he wants to do. So trust was a big thing, and especially the money side of things, because I know for me there's lots of things I would love to do, but I'm always like, Lord, when I have this much amount of money or I've got this surplus, or I've got. And actually reading this book has reminded me that, you know, everything belongs to the Lord.
And if I Will be faithful in the little and hand that over.
He can do much with that.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So just, I guess on that area of trust, I guess the other thing I think that was big as well is the kind of Try Jesus faith that she had.
It's not just about like the theory. Like we learn so much about this in the Bible about trusting God. The amount of times it says to trust him is incredible and do not fear. It comes up so many times in scripture.
But. But I think putting it into work in the day to day is really a big thing.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: Tell us more tea about the Try Jesus motto.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess it's like she's gone into these spaces that are extremely challenging. She's gone into drug dens and she's dealing with very kind of significant space situations. They're not like little things that she needs to trust God for, but like really big things. Like people who have come from really difficult backgrounds that haven't really been given the opportunity to kind of know the difference between right and wrong in those kind of situations. Those that need healing, those who are struggling with addiction, which is a big thing, like, because I think even scientifically, the addiction in itself is very challenging itself. But she was embracing all of these people without having all the answers or having all the resources or any resources really. And then going into these spaces and just being like, I'm just going to trust God and I'm going to like, the power of prayer. The power that she, the power of prayer that she actually believed and demonstrated, I think in the book was really, really big because I think sometimes we can like, know that we should trust God or know that we should pray. But how much are we truly believing that and how much do we truly believe that? Like, I'm gonna pray and this is gonna be answered and just standing in faith in those situations. So I think that for me, very much challenged me because I think it can be a struggle sometimes when doubt starts to creep in, especially when the circumstances around us don't really look like, you know, this could be an easy answer to prayer in the physical. I think it's really, it can be really challenging to actually fight the doubt in our minds and actually stand in faith. And I think, I think that doesn't mean that it has to be a complete absence of doubt. Like, yeah, but just enough faith. It says in the Bible, it says if you have faith the size of a mustard seed. So enough faith just to believe that like we can pray and this will be done. Like, yeah, God can do this. Like, there Is nothing that is too. Too big for him. There is no faith that's too small.
So I think that was.
That was a big thing. And I think the transformation that she then saw in the lives of addicts, gang members, who literally were brought to salvation, honestly, some of the people who were like, leaders of the gangs, who they were actually recruiting other people into. Into the. Into these, like, illegal businesses, quite like hardened criminals. It's not like someone who was sitting on the faith or kind of wondering or searching. Like, these people were, like, very set on. This is, you know, this is my life. And even they didn't believe that they could change. They're like, I can't change. This has been my experience.
But she kind of stood in faith essentially in those situations and just believed and prayed and believed in the power of prayer. And I guess it. It comes across like, let's try Jesus and see what he would do. And he comes. You know, he comes. He comes in and he delivers all these people from these stories. And then you just see multiple stories of these people where their lives have been transformed.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. And I think that's what it was. It's like what she was sharing.
Not that I'm diminishing the value of this, but they're all just very simple tools that I think we take for granted and we underestimate power of the tools that the Lord has given us. And, you know, one of those is prayer. Absolutely. You know, and I think we shy away and, you know, from praying for others, but we feel comfortable if we're, you know, in church and, you know, you can go over to a friend or someone, you know, or you pray in a connect group, but actually, would I go to somebody outside a particular train station in London and say, can I pray for you and fully believe without a shadow of doubt, you know, the scripture in Isaiah where it says, you know, I have come to heal the brokenhearted. I've come to. To set the captives free. So would I pray with conviction, knowing that that person's life is going to turn around? And I think that's what I loved about this book, is that her tools, it was just unapologetically Christian.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: You know, she. She spoke Jesus, she spoke the word, she prayed, she shared the stories in the Bible. People's lives that were transformed. Transformed. She, you know, helped people to understand what was happening. And then the power. Praying in tongues.
[00:17:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: For people's deliverance.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: You know, and I love the fact that actually she put that and she shared that and her and her. Her friends, you know, that was.
We don't fully understand it, we don't fully make sense of it, but there is power in this. And then you see, see the people who come into joining these kind of, you know, weaning off programs, the Christian weaning off programs, you know, that something that would take weeks and weeks, that they would do it in a matter of days. And it was the power of speaking in tongues. And the power of prayer was what restored these people and healed these people and set these people free. And then it was just a reminder, actually, Beulah, like, how much more should you be speaking in tongues? You know, when the Bible tells us that, you know, the Spirit knows what to ask for and all these utterances that even we can't. We don't know what to ask the Father, but the Spirit makes these petitions and makes these groanings and longings that the Father responds to. So for me, it was just. It was. It's so basic. T.
But it's the fact that even the basic things we have.
I say we. I'm not talking for everybody that's listening. I'm talking specifically for me that, you know, I do pray, I do speak in tongues, but I think I've maybe forgotten along the way the real power in prayer in speaking in tongues, that the Word is enough shared with the person that needs to hear it, is enough to set people free, is enough to radically change people's lives.
And could I be a little bit bold like her just to go into those alleyways and those dark spaces knowing that I am the light of the world because the Word tells me I am, and drive out darkness by not going in my own strength or my own power, but going in the power and the authority that the Lord has said I hold because of what Christ did at the cross.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
There is one part as well in the book where when she's going to speak in tongues, I think. I think it was for the first time and she was with a couple of other people that were encouraging her to speak in tongues. And she was like, oh, my gosh. And she felt really self conscious. And she's like, I don't want to do this kind of thing. And then she felt that the Lord was saying to her, are you willing to be a fool for my sake?
And that I felt like that really was like, so impacted me so much because there are so many situations in our lives that we could ask the same things to ourselves, like, are we willing to be a fool for his sake? It might feel uncomfortable. It just goes to show that it didn't feel natural. It didn't feel, it didn't feel safe, it didn't feel like. It didn't feel like, you know, something that she's like, used to.
So I think that's a big thing that sometimes and a lot of the time these things can feel uncomfortable. And that is where faith comes into play. It's just like, it's not always going to feel like something that we're familiar with, with, but we've got to take bold steps.
And I think that's something that I really took away from that.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: But I'm sorry to cut you off there, but as you were saying that about, you know, like feeling foolish and the Lord asking her, you know, are you willing to be foolish? She just reminds me of, you know, King David, you know, in Samuel when he's dancing before the ark and, you know, all out worship, right. And his wife is looking at him thinking like, what are you doing? That's not how a king behaves, you know, and his response is like, you know, I'm willing to look even more foolish than this.
You know, like his willingness to like be on again. It's that kind of unashamedly. Yeah, this is the gospel. This is the truth, this is the power, this is the God that we serve.
And yes, it might look foolish to the world, but actually this is the way, the truth and the life.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: And yeah, I, I just, it was just how simple.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Her approach was.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Is what struck me. There was nothing about what she did that none of us can't do. You know, all of us can boil a bit of rice. It wasn't like she was taking people to a five star restaurant and having profound debate with anybody. You know, it was just literally sitting down with somebody who's covered in muck, who's had a really heavy night, and just sitting with them at their level, talking to them, boiling rice for people, feeding people, going and standing with people as they stood for court hearings, paying for someone's bus fare, you know, for them to go for an interview.
It was just simple things T. It wasn't like groundbreaking stuff, but it was groundbreaking because it's so simple.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think sometimes when we think about like missionaries, which is essentially what she was, it kind of seems like a really big far fetched thing, like a massive thing that feels so far away from us.
But actually, like you said, everything that she was doing and like simple things that we can apply and that we can do in our everyday lives. And I think that really struck me. It's like all these things that we know maybe, but, and seem so simple that we, like, overlook are the basis of, like, this amazing story. And the outcomes in this book, especially in the space of like, social justice and just caring for people and faith on the front lines, these things that she was, you know, exercising, are things that we can do in our everyday lives.
So I think that's really encouraging for me personally, because especially when you. You're not, you know, we're not in the drugs, we particularly are not in the truck tenants of Hong Kong.
But it doesn't mean that we can't essentially have the same impact in the world around us and allow God to use us in the same ways by doing those same simple things that, you know, Jackie demonstrates in her journey in this book.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
And I think what she kept sharing was that, you know, the people that were getting saved. And I'm reading this out of the chapter called the House of Stevens, and she says that, you know, the people around her, all these young boys and, you know, drug dealers and pimps and everybody, she says their faith did not depend upon any understanding of theological concepts, but upon seeing of Jesus working in others and the willingness to let him work in their lives too.
And each time they prayed, they were answered and their faith grew as they were healed. And that's what it is. It's like we don't need to sometimes tell people, you know, to the A to Z of Christianity, we don't need to all be skilled in apologetics or anything like that. But it's actually, if we just give people Jesus and people get to experience and see what Jesus is doing in them, that then has a ripple effect because other people see that. That's what they say, right? It's the power of your testimony.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: You know, that's what the scripture tells us. You know, you think of the Samaritan woman, you know, like this woman had been married X amount of times, she was kind of an outcast in society that she had to come and pick up water at the well during the middle of the day at the most heat, the hottest point of the day. And, you know, she encounters Jesus and, you know, Jesus says to her that I'm the living water and if you drink of me, you'll never thirst again.
And then she goes back and it's her testimony that brings the whole crowd out. All she says is, come and see this man. Could he be the Messiah? Yeah, I mean, there's nothing Profound about that. There is nothing, you know, revolutionary about what she said. And if anything, she was not somebody that people would naturally follow.
But actually it's just a reminder that the Lord will use people, despite their backgrounds, despite their past, despite their stories, despite their present circumstances.
And all we've got to say is, could this.
Come and see for yourself. What have you got to lose?
And let people experience God.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: And then come to that conclusion. And like you and I and many others, they'll come to the conclusion that he is God, he loves them and that nothing is impossible with Him.
And so that was kind of encouraging, which is actually just. Beulah, just keep it simple.
Keep it simple in how you talk about the Lord. Keep it simple and just share what the Lord has done for you. What has he done in you? What has he done? I know I've got my history. I know I've got my walk with the Lord. And it's as simple as, look what the Lord has done and let that be a testimony in itself.
And I think my final musings from this book because we could literally read chapter by chapter and then we spoilt it for you. So go read it for yourself. But I think my last point in all of this was actually using that word again about simple, was how Jackie chose to live her life simple, simply.
[00:28:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: You know, and in living simply, she was able, you know, there's a particular time in her life where I think the house that she's staying in, she's housing everybody.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: You know, she's housing everybody. Everything that she's earning, you know, from her teacher salary or teaching music or money that gets sent to her from people that are supporting her whilst on mission. You know, she's buying shirts for, for other people. She's paying bail money to release, you know, somebody who's, you know, in prison. She's paying for lawyers fees and just that heart that she had.
And she does still have to just give everything.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: To the Lord's people and to the Lord's work.
And actually she says, if I can find. I did underline it, but she just says that like her needs were met, you know, and she's not talking about her needs were met in the sense of, you know, she got. She had five star holidays and resorts or, you know, had the latest car or an amazing house. But actually how simply she was even grateful to be like, actually all her needs were met. Everything that she needed on a day to day basis, on a month to month basis, her needs were met. And it was just a humbling reminder that actually the Lord does provide for us. Yeah, you know, and you know that saying that says you can't out give God when you give to him, that was real, really humbling for me. And a reminder, oh, there it is.
Under growing pains, she says, I knew God would provide for me.
And I was amazed to see how our incomes grew. Ever since I had stopped teaching full time, I found that I received all that I needed. Sometimes a check would arrive in the post. Sometimes a friend would give exactly the same amount as I had been praying for. When I wanted a rubber boat for a swimming expedition with the boys, a friend sent me the right sum from England without knowing the need.
Now, while we never had enough money to pay for the next week's weeks food or rent, we always had enough for each day. And she talks about how like this built their faith, the boys, the people in her care, you know, because they prayed each morning for their daily bread, you know, and some of us would feel really uncomfortable living on the edge of this kind of bread line and be like, God, this is, this is, you know, really running up my high anxiety that I don't know what's going to happen next day.
But she almost kind of embraced it.
She embraced that, lord, give us our daily bread.
I know I'm a big wave from that kind of living same.
But it was just again eye opening, challenging, inspiring to be like, what could life look like if we live like that?
Absolutely enough for me. You wrap up?
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It was a fantastic book overall. I mean, we definitely recommend. There's so much to take away from it. There's so much that can challenge us in our daily walk with Christ for ourselves and the way that we live our lives, but also the way that we can actually impact other people's lives around us. And I think there was just a lot to take away about, you know, the compassion to go into difficult spaces that, you know, that was evident in her life and her story.
And I think we can really like think about. And for me, I like to think about like, what is my world city in Hong Kong? Like, what is that in my world that I can actually, you know, be open to allowing God to use me in that space. And where is God asking me to trust him more? I think that's a big one.
There are a lot of areas, I think, where God is really challenging me and I think the obedience is a big thing. Obedience and the surrender and surrendering daily is a big thing for me as well, that I Took away from the book. And so, yeah, I walked out with a lot of questions for myself in terms of my journey and also what I can do in the social impact space as well. And just really taking on board, like you said, the simple things that Jackie was doing that I sometimes overlook or often overlook the power of and just applying that in my day to day. I mean, even in the Bible, when we look in the Bible, like, a lot of the people that, you know, a lot of the main people in the Bible that we read their stories and were encouraged by their stories were really ordinary people just applying these same simple steps that Jackie was doing. Like, Peter was a fisherman, Paul was a former prosecutor. All the apostles were ordinary people.
Like, so it's the same thing with Jackie. It wasn't like, like you said, like, she was like this big leader that everyone would. An aspirational leader that everyone would follow. She just took the steps, surrendered daily, walked in obedience to what God had called her to do, entrusted him in every step and allowed God to be God for those people. Like, she didn't take it upon herself to convince people or, you know, do. She just stood in the gap where there was a gap. Wherever God told her to go, she went and she did what was in her hands, she gave what was in her hands, and she trusted God with everything. So, yeah, I think there was a lot to take away. But those are kind of like my final reflections on on the book. And yeah, we would definitely encourage anyone who's listening to go and grab a hold of the book and read it. It was really, really amazing and really challenged me significantly in my faith, my journey with God, and in this space of faith on the front lines as well. So that's pretty much it for me from the book review. So get the book.
[00:34:50] Speaker B: I think on one of our episodes, Katie also referred to a couple of books which we'll put in the bottom of the episode details. So you know Patrick Reagan, who she talks very highly of a Bobby Houston book as well, Christine Chane book. So there's some amazing resources and there's other author books we will put in the episode description. So go read, be inspired and then, yeah, tune in for the final episode next week.
[00:35:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, thanks for joining us and we look forward to seeing you next time on Working our God.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: Bye.
