Episode Transcript
[00:00:17] Speaker A: So welcome to our last episode of this season, and it's flown by.
And what we wanted to do is we wanted to use this particular episode to share some reflections that we've had following our conversations with our guests. We've also discussed throwing in book reviews and our reflections having read those books. And there's also something else which is a bit of a left ball, because when we were planning for this season, we were thinking about profiling particular individuals, characters in the Bible and weaving that into the theme for the season.
And then recently I've just come back from Rome and I've just had this kind of profound encounter, I guess, and I wanted to talk about the early church and Peter specifically. So there's a lot we're going to try and pack in, but toy in. Let's. So let's start with any reflections that you have from any of the conversations that we've had with our guests this season.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So I guess we've spoken to some pretty incredible people who are really raw and candid about their journey and their experience.
And I think one of the key things that I found from the conversations that most pretty much all the guests, it's not like there was a full plan in place that they knew about. They knew all the steps, and they just followed in the exact plan. They actually didn't know, really. And a lot of the time they were kind of just taking one step at a time and just trusting God in each one of those steps. So I think for me, that was probably the biggest thing. It's like no one in any of the conversations really was like, I had the full roadmap and I just followed it precisely. And I guess what, that's what faith is, isn't it? It's like trust. It's trusting being. Having the ability to actually just trust God every step of your. Whether it's career or our lives, everything in between.
So I think that was a big one for me. And on just the back of that, I was listening to another podcast recently, and they were kind of talking about the topic of faith. And the speaker mentioned something that was really interesting to me. He was like, what is the opposite of faith? And I actually expected the response to be like, fear or doubt. And then he actually was like, articulating that it's not actually doubt. You can actually have doubt and still have faith and still take the step, even doubting it. And that is where your faith kind of lies. But that actually the opposite of faith is certainty, like just knowing everything. And because you wouldn't need to have faith. And that kind of really struck me because I was like, yeah, that is really true. Because if you had the full roadmap and the full plan in place, there would be no reason to have faith or to trust in God or even to, like, lean on him when it comes to your career or next steps or anything. You would just. You would just do it because you know what the plan is.
So I think that kind of feeds back into. I guess my biggest takeaway, I guess, from the conversations with our guests is that no one had certainty. No one had a plan. Even, like our guests who did have, like, more of a direct kind of word or calling that they felt strongly, they still didn't have certainty about everything in between.
So I think.
Yeah, I think that was the biggest takeaway for me. But what. What are your thoughts?
[00:03:57] Speaker A: I mean, just following up on what you've just said, I mean, that's just flip. What. In the Christian dome, we always discussed as the opposite of faith. Right. Which is doubt, fear, and not trusting God and his sovereign will.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: But never considered that actually knowing it so well is probably the opposite of faith. So I'm gonna go and consider that if there's any area of my lives that, yeah, maybe I'm too certain and haven't left room for faith.
But what. What struck me actually was this kind of golden thread that was in each of the conversations that God had been so faithful to the things that they had desired or had held in their hearts or where they felt, you know, maybe this is my natural skill set or my passion.
But God didn't discard those inner desires, if you know what I mean. So, you know, like, Nana always enjoying singing and acting, even though she was doing this law career, you know, Pastor Jerry, even though being called as a pastor now.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: He still gets to live out his passion of music and being involved in the creative industry. So I think that's what really struck me, is that the things that we are deeply passionate about find joy in.
God keeps that woven through our calling and our purpose and the will that he has for us.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: So that was quite encouraging.
[00:05:44] Speaker B: Yeah, very encouraging.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
And then Taurian, you know, as we've been doing this season, we've been reading Relentless Pursuit by Ben Cooley.
And it's a really amazing book because it's a collection of stories, effectively, of people sharing their own experiences about the journeys that they've been on. And there's different themes in the book that it covers. So one of the books is around, you know, what is calling, what is will around frustration, around the power to say no, leadership.
And that actually saying no and failing is actually a part of moving forward.
And that success in itself, knowing that there's a time to say, that's done. There's a full stop on that particular season.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Or that project.
And that doesn't mean that's failure.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: That just means that actually you've done what needed to be done in that season.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: At that particular time.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: That was really powerful to me.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: Especially when I'm wired to feel like, God, have I not done enough?
And that project or that dream or that idea didn't really take off in the way that I thought it should have taken off. But maybe it was never supposed to take off to the next level. It was part of a process for the next phase of what life looks like.
[00:07:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That was actually a big one because I think there was a few of the people who were. Had written their story in the book who had said something similar. Like, I think quite a few of them actually mentioned that as well. I think it wasn't just one. So that was actually quite interesting to me as well, because often I do feel like it's like, oh, if you, like, quit in quotation marks, then you've essentially failed. But actually, it's completely fine that certain things, it just has to. This is the end. Like, this is the end of that chapter and you step into a new season and that's okay. And that's actually the right decision.
And then I think sometimes we can kind of just like, feel like we need to stick at something because we're afraid potentially of, you know, stopping and then that feeling like a failure.
So, yeah, I really liked that as well. That definitely resonated with me quite. Quite a bit.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And there's a particular quote that I wanted to read out where it says, the goal, after all, is the goal. If you have to change strategies or paths in order to get there, that's okay.
[00:08:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: You know, and there was this kind of like, that's freeing, actually.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: Because there is the ultimate goal, right. Is as a Christian, to know God, to be more like him and to reveal him to as many people as we can.
And in that process of finding our vocation, our calling, our purpose, the goal is still to glorify God in whatever we do.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Absolutely.
Yeah.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: And then there was also. I know I talked about it in the first episode to, you know, frame, like, the will when we were having that conversation.
And I thought Natalie grants testimony was really powerful to me because I really did think like her, which is that there's this kind of will of God and it's all mystical and there's one will and if I miss it, I've messed up. And if I put my foot wrong or make the wrong decision, I'm out of the will of God.
And then there was this quite heavy kind of works burden that I was carrying.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: Thinking that God, I don't want to get this so wrong.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Because I'm going to be out of your will. Yeah. That's it. I'm lost.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: And actually I. I specifically looked at my life and I thought on paper I've messed up so much. Like I didn't get the best grades at university.
[00:10:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: I was supposed to do one subject at university.
I was gonna go down English literature or journalism. And none of that happened. And here I am in finance.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Two finance girlies.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: Exactly. And what I thought was failure.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: At that time where I was messing up or not making the right choices or certain doors were closing.
Actually that scripture of, you know, all things work together for good.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Just really echoes what Natalie was saying.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: You know, about God is a providential God and he's working in all things.
[00:11:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: So that was really encouraging.
[00:11:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that was definitely really encouraging for me as well.
But there were actually a few things that were. That really did resonate with me as well. And even in my current situation as well with where I am at with career in life and work and all that kind of stuff. But one of the big ones for me was using your frustration, a practical one from the book, using your frustration as a fuel for purpose.
And Ben Cooley himself kind of talks, the author of the book, he talks about this quite a bit. And he is like the founder of justice of Hope, which is basically trying to abolish modern day slavery.
And basically that all started out by just like his like deep hurt or upset or frustration that like nothing was being done about this. And it was something that like at the time especially no one really knew about. And then he was just like really moved by that.
And that's what led to like him building this massive organization that actually actively fights against this justice.
So I felt like that was like huge for me is that like actually if we reflect on our, on our lives and even in our careers or whatever we're doing in our vocation that maybe the things that are frustrating you are actually going to lead to like your. Whatever you need to do or like lead to a different purpose, or maybe there's something in that. Because I think, again, this is probably leading into another theme. They talked a lot about innovation as well, and I think innovation actually stems from those frustrations. I think there was a. A quote in there that I. I know that I think resonated with you as well, Beulah, that there was a lady who created the dishwasher.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: So that all stemmed from just, like, the difficulties in being able to wash dishes. And I think her.
Was it her team at the time, and then they were having issues with, like, breaking dishes and things like that. So she invented the dishwasher essentially from the frustration of, like, dishes not being cleaned properly and, like, being broken. I believe that was the driver of that. So I think that was a big one for me that really resonated that it's like, let's not sit in that frustration. I'm talking to myself here. Just, like, sit in that frustration and just be annoyed with it, but actually use it as a fuel for perhaps innovation or whatever it is that potentially maybe God is calling you to. Because maybe someone else isn't frustrated with it and they just go along with it. But maybe you're frustrated because God's placing that upon your heart so that you can do something about it.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Absolutely.
Yeah. The lady's name is Josephine.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: If anybody wants to look into that. But I think you're 100. Right. I think, you know, God gives us unique giftings, unique talents, unique things that only we can see.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: And feel stirred by.
And I think we need to press into those when we feel this uncomfortableness.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: The frustration.
Because within that, God is communicating to you.
So when many Christians say, I don't know if God's speaking to me, I don't know if God's. I don't know if I'm hearing from God.
Start with that. Yeah, Start with actually what's kind of stirring in you? What do you feel passionate about? What do you get frustrated about? What are the things that you read or you hear that you think, gosh, why is this happening? Something needs to be done about this. Or it could be so much better if there was this press into that. And as you press into that, you'll hear more of God, what.
What God wants to do through that. So, you know, if you feel like you don't hear from God now, he's always speaking.
And I think the final thing I wanted to say on the book, on the reflection, was that I was rereading one of the quotes about you Know when God spoke, you know, for the first time, as recorded in Genesis chapter one, God didn't speak to have conversation because there was no one there to have conversation with, but he spoke to create.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: And actually the power of our voice, the power of our words.
And as I was meditating on that reflection, I felt Holy Spirit say to me that, you know, I have given you the power to create wealth.
Now don't go into the wealth bit and think riches, gold, silver, you know, maybe that is your calling. And, you know, we, we pray for that for you. But focus on the bit that God has said that he has given us power to create.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: And I find that really profound because I'm thinking about that which is actually God. You are a creator, and if we are made in your image, we have been called to create.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: And what does create look like?
And often we think creativity is around making music, making art, you know, making films. It's all the kind of artistic vibes. But actually there's creating a ministry, there's creating systems and processes at work.
There's creating a family dynamic, a marriage, a culture in your home. Do you know what I mean? Like, creating is so powerful.
Creating community, creating just, you know, techniques and tools that the world needs. Right. So I just want to encourage everyone that actually God has given us the power to create.
So maybe take that and say, God, what do you want me to create?
What is that? And let him speak into that question that you may have for him.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Could go on and on about this book, but we do, we, we do really encourage you to grab this book.
It's amazing.
You know, read each chapter, each story, pause, underline, meditate, see what God wants to say to you, and get behind the great mission that Ben is doing.
And, you know, it's so relevant and work needs to be done. So get behind that.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: To toy in, I want to touch on very briefly because we are coming to the end of our season and this episode, but to tie everything together was off a recent trip that I just had. We've just come back from Rome.
Have you been to Rome?
[00:19:02] Speaker B: I have, I have.
I went. 2022 was my first time. It was amazing.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: It is really amazing. It's. It's so strange.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: And I don't know if you felt this when you went, but like, I knew I wanted to go to Rome.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: But having been there, it feels almost like one of those bucket list cities that you have to do. Does that make sense? Absolutely.
Yeah. And I know, I know that I'm incredibly, like, a huge advocate for London, saying, if we had the weather, it's the best city in the world. But there's something about Rome that is just, I don't know, like, on another level.
[00:19:45] Speaker B: I know, I know. I definitely felt that as well. I just. I really did fall in love with Rome, which I didn't really expect because I did a big Italy trip, so I kind of went through a lot of places. So the other, like, by the beach and all that was probably where my expectations were a lot higher. But Rome was just like a strong content in the end. It was just such an amazing, beautiful experience. There's so much history there as well. I think that was a big one. It's like going around and seeing everything is like, wow, this is incredible. I can't believe I'm here.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: Was this Italian tour pre. Marrying an Italian?
[00:20:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it was.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Interesting. Interesting.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: But actually, on a very personal note for our listeners, that is actually where I got engaged. So he. He popped the question on. On this Rome trip, you go.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: You can't say. You don't get personal tips from us.
Oh, how amazing. What was your highlight of Rome?
[00:20:51] Speaker B: Oh, what was the highlight?
I mean, I think it was definitely the history involved. Went to Vatican City. I really loved that.
I think it was just like knowing that, like, all these different parts of history and Christian history as well, had happened in all of these different locations. So there was a location. I'll have to get the name of where we went exactly. But, yeah, I think just more so, just seeing all the history and going to all of the beautiful buildings and just knowing that, yes, so much in history has happened here.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: So I think that was probably a highlight for me.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I. I would echo that, actually, because for me, I wanted to end our podcast, this conversation, you know, around really. So we had. We took a tour guide for the Vatican, the Sistine chapel, and then St. Peter's Basilica. And for anyone that hasn't been there, like, you must go. There are thousands of churches around the world, but this church that, you expect it to be grandeur, you expect it to be magnificent, but actually being in the building itself is beyond what anybody can imagine. It's just so breathtakingly beautiful. So at the start of the tour, we're standing kind of on top of this kind of balcony bit, and our tour guide is pointing to St. Peter's and saying that, you know, we're going to follow this route and then we'll end up there and I'll leave you There, because I can't come in and talk.
And I don't know if actually she was a person of faith or not, but she was telling us really the history of why St. Peter's Basilica was, you know, created, why was it built?
And it is all around, you know, Peter the disciple. And she was telling the group that, you know, the story, which is well known by anybody that knows about early church history, that Peter was eventually brought to Rome, and at that time, under the Emperor Nero, he was sent to be crucified. And not only was he crucified, but he asked to be crucified upside down because he didn't feel himself worthy to be crucified, standing upwards in the way that Christ had died.
And I just felt this wave of emotion, quite tearful, actually. My spirit felt just really, quite sad. And not sad in, like, in pain, but sad and actually remembering and recalling that actually what the early church defined as successful to the generation that we're in now and what we're defining as success is totally different.
And then you have this obscure, no one knows him fisherman, you know, from Galilee, who's been called by this radical preacher at the time that no one really knew what was going to come of this.
And he'd been told that, look, you come and follow me and you're going to be a fisherman of men. I mean, that's great. But what did that actually mean? Did Peter really understand that? And then, you know, you read about his journey and eventually to, you know, his death, and it just, you know, it just really struck me that what I don't want, you know, in our heart on this podcast is, yes, absolutely, we are speaking to people that have achieved much.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: In terms of their careers, their vocation, their professions. But actually, what God and what kingdom defines of success is not platforms, it's not positions, it's not, you know, what your pay package is or, you know, your CV on LinkedIn or anything like that at all. And I think I just wanted to kind of end on an encouragement for our listeners and anybody that tunes in that. Actually, everyone has a calling.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: You know, whether that. You know, whether that calling be as a mum at home, bringing up your kids, whether your calling is, you know, is a postman or someone who delivers or, you know, in classrooms or if it is in boardrooms itself, you know, or in corridors of power, that actually God needs every single one of us to play our part and actually to look at God face to face in your prayer times, in your devotions, and know that as long as you are doing what God has called and pressed on your heart, he is looking at you and that's. That's success.
Does that make sense?
[00:25:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that was beautifully articulated. And Peter is a great example that you've spoken about as well because even from his story alone, we can learn a lot about what success was, I guess, in the early times because like you said, a lot of the apostles, a lot of the greats of the Bible were like fishermen, tax collectors, very ordinary people just going about their ordinary. Whatever God had placed in their hands to do at that time. They weren't doing anything wildly incredible when Jesus met them, where. Where they were.
So I think that's a. That's a big one that we definitely should keep in mind in anything that we do when it relates to our careers or anything like that.
But I did want to talk about Peter a bit more because it's also like, even in. When it comes to, like, his faith in what he was doing, it wasn't flawless. Like, he got out of the, like, the example of when he walked on water. It's a fantastic story. Walking on water is wild. Like, that is insane. And that's the part that probably we focus on a lot. But also he got out of the boat, he stepped out in faith, and then he lost sight. He lost sight of Jesus. He lost sight of, you know, he was heading. He was heading.
And then he started to sing. And I think that's a really key thing, that we should consistently keep our eyes on Jesus in anything that we do and just make sure that that is the focus of, like, the basis of everything that we do, because otherwise we will sing on our way.
So. But yeah, I think it's also encouraging because it's like all these people were ordinary and they went through similar things of what we feel, having doubts and not really knowing and taking one step. Like, they were just fishing. And then Jesus, like, come along, like, I'm gonna make you pictures of men. And they' what exactly does that mean? Like, what does that mean to them? At the time, that would have been so kind of confusing. But they dropped everything that they had and they just followed Jesus. So I think. I think the story of Peter is actually a great example when we're speaking about, I guess, the early church and what success looks like.
[00:28:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:08] Speaker B: Back then. And I think that's something that we should definitely keep in mind in today's society, even when it does seem to be a lot of focus around, you know, wealth, material things and that levels of influence, which are amazing. Things and, you know, we pray that everyone does have those things.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: It isn't what success essentially means, really.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the key thing, isn't it? Is that he had a calling.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: Didn't know. Didn't know what it meant.
In between messed up.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:44] Speaker A: Significantly. And you know, like peer pressure when he was denying Jesus, you know, at the end. And some of us feel that, that we're in workplaces, in environments that maybe we're not standing up for our faith or reflecting our faith in a way that could be more obvious. And, you know, that's a conversation that we'll have further down when we're talking about kind of brand new and brand God in one of our seasons that we're working on, you know, so. But what's also interesting actually is the legacy of Peter is that, you know. Yes. Jesus himself said that, you know, on this kind of confession that Peter made that he would build the church. I mean, even that. I mean, I wondered and I was asking myself, did Peter know what the church meant? Because he's Jewish. Right. And he's just, he's aware of the temple and the synagogues, but did he actually know what the church actually meant? Because the church didn't exist. So you've got this calling, you've got this kind of huge weight of this is who you are and this is what I'm going to be building on you. This is what Jesus is saying. But Peter had no idea what a church looks like. And neither did. Neither did he see the finished church. Yeah.
You know, in his lifetime. And that was also a reminder to me that there are probably things that God has said to each and every one of us that we may see in our lifetimes.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: And we may not. But God is faithful to complete what he has started. And that ties into someone like Abraham, you know, because God said to him, you know, like, go and look at the stars and the, the, the sand and everything. And that's how numerous, you know, your descendants are going to be. But, you know, when Abraham, when Abraham ended, finished his life, ended on earth, he did not have that amount of children.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: He had a handful of children that he could count. Right. It wasn't as numerous as the stars or as the sand. And so that was a reminder to me that God is a generational God that, you know, just because you may feel that time is limited and am I going to fulfill everything and do everything in my lifetime?
[00:31:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: God is already seeing the next generation and the generation after that, he's going to continue the work that he started.
So, you know, especially someone like me who panics about time, thinks, oh, my gosh, it's racing away what's going on.
Trusting that actually if God is building our lives, that building that he's doing doesn't end with just when our time is done. That there is a bigger picture to this.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: So heavy stuff. I know that I'm throwing, but it. But it's just really an encouragement.
[00:31:44] Speaker B: Right?
[00:31:45] Speaker A: Like, yeah, press into God.
Follow him, lean into him. Trust that the things that he has said to you, he is for you.
And just be patient.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
No, that was great.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: Any nuggets? Toy, anyone?
[00:32:04] Speaker B: Any nuggets? I guess the last thing I'd probably want to say as well, especially as we kind of talked about your reflection on what Natalie Grant said and being, like, afraid of, like, stepping out of line or anything like that.
All these people as well, in the early days, pretty much all of them messed up real bad. Like, not like I kind of stepped outside the line. Like, they did some pretty wild stuff. I mean, Paul was slaying Christians before.
Like, he. These are really, really big things, you know, but we. We kind of focus more on the after, which is amazing. But I think one thing I did want to highlight is that, like, God will use everyone. Like, he. His plan is to use each and every one of us. We can't step outside and then be like, it's all done. Like, you can't mess up enough.
That, yeah, there's no hope at all. Like, he really wants to use each and every one of us. And so I think I just wanted to probably end on that encouragement as well.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: Amazing, amazing, amazing. This has been so fun, honestly.
So thank you.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: If you've made it this far and you've listened to all of our episodes, send us your feedback.
Let us know if there's anybody that you'd like us to reach out to.
[00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:24] Speaker A: Get on the podcast.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:33:26] Speaker A: If you know anybody, stories that we need to hear, send them our way.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:31] Speaker A: And any books that we need to get our hands on.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: And then review.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: Send it all over.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: Amazing.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: Lovely.
[00:33:41] Speaker B: Thank you. Thanks, Bea. And thanks, guys.
[00:33:45] Speaker A: Thank you, babe. Speak to you guys soon.
[00:33:46] Speaker B: Speak to you soon.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Bye. Bye.
