Episode Transcript
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Hey. Hey.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Welcome back to Working Out God. Today, we're really excited about this conversation.
We're diving into what faith looks like, like in the real world.
As you know, we've been discussing this season about God at work, faith on the front lines, and we're hearing from people who are living out God's heart for justice, compassion and service in very practical ways. So today we're joined by Ralph Boor, who works for Social Impact at Hillsong Church, London.
Through their work in Social Impact, Ralph and the team are responding to some of the most pressing needs in our local communities and also globally, supporting vulnerable people, empowering individuals and families, and demonstrating the love of Jesus in tangible ways.
So let's jump right in. Firstly, Ralph, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:12] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having. Having me. Yeah, it's an honor.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah, no, we're really excited to have you. Thank you so much for making the time to chat to our listeners.
[00:01:23] Speaker C: Hopefully it'll be helpful and can inspire some people. Blew my best.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Well, we thought we'd jump straight in and just start a bit with your personal journey. So would you mind just sharing us, sharing with us just a bit about your personal journey into social impact work? Was this something that you always envisioned, always felt called to do, or did you get the sense of God's calling over time?
[00:01:52] Speaker C: Yes, I think it's definitely a journey. It's been a journey for me personally.
I grew up in the Netherlands, so pretty cushy. Nice.
Like Netherlands is just. Yeah, was great growing up and just seemed like a stable family and like, always, like, had a. Yeah, a good way of life, I guess. And I think over time and. And although my grandparents, I think especially my dad's side, were always quite focused and especially my grandmother, keen on thinking about the poor people, the people who needed help in society or further afield, and making sure we pray for it and making sure that we eat what we head on our plate because there was other people that would not have that privilege and just making us aware of, like, there's other people and always having enough soup to go around for people who needed it.
So I think that was maybe that the foundation there.
But I think, yeah, growing up, not necessarily very much focused on it.
I think it started during my uni time in the Netherlands.
I was part of a student union and. And yeah, was keen to do more for. For society. And I think we started something simple by reaching out to other students. We're a Christian union and started doing, like, I don't know what the student houses Are like in the UK but in the Netherlands they're disgusting. And like house of Dishes seem to like build up over, over weeks, not months, if not months.
And so we had this outreach idea that we would just go out and wash people's dishes just to have conversations and say like okay, we're here from the Christian Student Union and just yeah, here to do your dishes if you want us to. And people wanted us to. And that's somehow where we started as a committee of the union at the time. And at the time we're also able to go to the Ukraine and do some work there. And that kind of shaped me. It's like okay, people live not too far from where we are in, in a poverty or in, in a situation that is quite challenging. And that sort of like started shaping. But it wasn't like something that I planned to be my career or my, my calling as such. I was doing marketing management as my studies and communicators communication studies.
So I was pretty much focused on that and traveling the world basically. So went to Australia after my studies and again loved it. But it doesn't, wasn't necessary looking at that from a social impact type of viewpoint. But I think in Australia I grew up Christian in Bible belt meddling, so conservatives quite maybe strict, some would say environment.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: And
[00:05:05] Speaker C: yeah, I was just hit by I guess getting to know Jesus and faith in a church in Melbourne and it just really like changed how I saw faith and Jesus and, and that kind of like was like a life changing moment for me.
And at the same time I think I like it felt like I had a heart for youth. I was doing youth work in the Netherlands already for our church and back home. But yeah, I felt more called to do youth work and be part of a youth team but didn't really have any like avenues to do it.
Came to the UK after traveling around and studying and did a marketing job in London but had the, had the desire to be part of say the youth team in church. And I was like well if it's from God it will happen. I'm not going to ask for it. I'm not going to say that I'm interested in it. I'm not going to apply for it. Someone will ask me to be part of it.
And yeah, I think it was a year after I moved to London that someone was like I think you should join the youth team. And I was like yes, I will.
And I think that really, yeah get me more going and working in central London in the location, working with youth from all kinds of backgrounds from, I guess, good background, but also, like people from migrant backgrounds or people new to the city or people struggling to make an income. Just having those families, yeah, being part of my life and being able to serve them, I guess opened my eyes and at the same time was able to travel to South Africa and Namibia and spell a trip to Vision Rescue. The trip that you did Pula.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:07:07] Speaker C: In November last year.
I went on that trip in 2010. So, like, those years around 2009 to 2010, I think were quite formative in terms of how I saw the world and what I feel like God's heart for social impact was. And. And just seeing the work that Vision Rescue was doing on the ground and some of the charities in Namibia that I had a chance to visit, I was like, okay, I think this is something that I'm passionate about. So I'm not sure how I can help, what I can do, but I think that's where the seeds were starting to. Well, they probably were sown already, but starting to grow. And I'm like, okay, not sure what this is, but, yeah, I'm passionate about this and I want to see or be involved more and more of this.
In 2011, I got the chance to start working for Hillsong Church in London, initially as a personal assistant and later on as a communications.
Yeah. Manager for the church.
But through that, got to know Compassion, got to know more of Fish Rescue, A21, some of the charities that we were doing as a. Yeah. As a global.
Global partnerships. And, yeah, that further opened my eyes and was able to go to Compassion in Uganda and see the. The impact there. And again, I think that just spurred me on to even more getting involved with Toshi Impact and started thinking about what would that look like. But I was still, like, up till 2015, very much focused on communications for the church and.
But slowly started developing the relationships and I guess, exposure to some of the partnerships that we have as a church and some of the work that we were doing.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Can I ask Ralph, actually? Because last season we were talking about kind of knowing what the will of God is and your calling and did you have you just kind of. From what I've heard of your story, it seems like you were just leaning into what God was showing you and the spaces that he was putting in, or do you think you've been intentional about pursuing the passions that have risen along the way?
[00:09:32] Speaker C: That's a very good question.
I think I've been more leaning into things like that. So I was in Australia. And I really had not. Was like, I want to stay here. I don't want to leave the sun, I don't want to leave the church. I don't. And, and. But I, I couldn't figure out how to, to make it work at the time in terms of, like, finance and visa and also, like, what my purpose would be there.
And I think, yeah, it was in Australia that I was like, okay, I think God is telling me, try London. I was like, I had no desire previously, like, six months before, I would never thought that I moved to London or to the UK for that matter.
So I was like, okay, we'll try. And so I got that marketing job with the Dutch Tourist Board and from there that opened up ways to get involved in church and youth team and social impact and everything. And I think another moment was in 2015 when the Syrian refugee crisis sort of hit Europe and lots of refugees coming into.
Into Europe uk.
And I was keen to do something, but again, not sure where to start.
And I was, Scott, like, I'm a little bit disillusioned with my communications job. And I was like, this is not going to be my life.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:02] Speaker C: And I was good. I want to do something with this whole refugee thing, but I'm not sure what. And then I think it was a few weeks later that Garrett Tiger bust at the time, Rebus at the time at a START meeting, he's like, we need to do something as a church to respond to this refugee crisis. But I'm not sure what.
So that's when I said, like, I'm happy to be involved. Not sure to what degree, maybe with comms or with like putting a website together or whatever.
But I'm happy to explore what we can do. So joined a small group, I think was five, five of us that, yeah, started putting their heads together and think about what can we do. So we didn't know anything about refugees, so decided to go to Calais, which was the only place that we knew where we could find refugees and see what the need was. So, yeah, I think was more leaning in, from, from that perspective. I'm like, okay, got it. I have this desire and I believe, yeah, God has opened some, some avenues of pathways and was able to step into that.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: So, yeah, okay. And then when God said to you, look at London, knowing that it's cold, wet, not like Melbourne in any way, you were quite open to that.
[00:12:21] Speaker C: I think I was.
[00:12:22] Speaker A: Or was it a wrestle?
[00:12:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I was open to it.
[00:12:26] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:12:27] Speaker C: Because I think a few months before I went to visit London.
And I was like, I have to just go to London at least once in my life. I'd have to see the city. But I'm like, I just had no, like, interest in being part of UK culture.
[00:12:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:45] Speaker C: And I was like, I'll move to France or something like that. Yeah, that was my ideal plan.
Or, or Australia if, if that would work out.
But so that kind of changed my heart into like, okay, London is not that bad and the church here seems great and I can at least try it for a year and two years max and then we'll see what happens.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: And how many years has it been now?
[00:13:18] Speaker C: 18 years?
[00:13:21] Speaker B: A little longer?
Yes, I guess as well. Just fast forwarding now to today and what you're doing now just in case some of the listeners don't know what social impact is to. Do you mind just quickly sharing what social impact is in general and what are the biggest needs you guys are responding to right now and just giving everyone just a bit of an overview of what you're now currently doing.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: Yes. So around 2016, I started working on the refugee projects and the global partnerships and was able to do that. But social impact is basically what we do as a church to I guess reach the people outside of our church and especially those who are marginalized or find themselves in a tough situation.
And that's. That plays out on a global and a local level.
So globally we have partnerships with the likes of Compassion in Uganda, Fish and Rescue in India, Watoto also in Uganda, World Vision in Jordan, working with young refugees there and a 21, of course providing human trafficking.
On a local level, we have green lights looking at the needs for homeless people, especially in London and Kent.
Refugee response, which I get to work on is our projects with welcoming and supporting refugees in the uk, asylum seekers as well with football projects or community cafe, English classes, employment support.
And then we have, in our Liverpool and Newcastle locations, we have a community grocery. So people or families who are funnable and maybe on a low income that need some extra support with getting groceries and support their family. And we have Amplified Arts, which is arts academy, to support young people from 4 to 18 with performing arts classes at a, yeah, affordable rate so that they can get into this industry they want to without having to, yeah, pay lots of money or not being able to pay it and so fairfaring and away for them. So that's in very short, what social impact is. As a church we're focused on.
Yes, or our church, but we also want to be focused on those around us and leaving an impact in our cities and our communities and look after after those who are maybe homeless, maybe strangers, maybe four, and doing that and work in a team of five people across. Across the uk.
I feel like it was another question that was within the question and maybe you can help me remind me what it was.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: Oh, I also asked, what are the biggest needs you're responding to right now? Out of all the areas you just touched on, what are some of the biggest ones?
[00:16:36] Speaker C: There's so many needs right now, it seems, and the fact is we can't do everything.
Personally, what I feel like some of the needs are for the areas that I'm involved in and I'm talking. Well, on a local level, we're seeing a lot of asylum seekers actually since 2020 who just need support of people coming around and supporting them understand how the UK works, supporting them through the baiting period of getting asylum, getting support with excellent jobs and employability. So that's a need that we see at the moment and we unfortunately see a lot of the people who get their status become homeless because there's such a short period of time between being an asylum seeker, then recognized refugee and being able to make that transition.
So that's a really difficult period sometimes for the people that we work with.
And so that's a big need, I think, connecting it to, yeah, I guess my heart for youth and the young refugee projects that we have.
The need. Yeah, we've done football projects for the last 10 years, but just again, and it's refugees, young refugees that have come by themselves to the UK, so no parents or no family here, so they're 15, 16, 17, and not a lot of parental support or they. Yeah, they can. They sometimes in foster care, sometimes in local authority care, in like a semi independent provision.
But there's just so much, I think, need in terms of like giving them direction, giving them like some older brothers or fathers or figures to support them and help them and just creating opportunities for them.
I think on a global level, we obviously work with World Vision and some of the emergency reliefs and some of the.
Again, it's connected to what we do locally as well, but we have a lot of people from Sudan and just the situation in Sudan and Darfur and it's horrible. And just what we have to hear from families or people who have families back home still in Sudan and just not being able to get in touch or having people pass away or.
And. And just. Yeah, despair or the. Yeah, the horrible crisis that's taking taking place there and that's. That's not getting a lot of attention and not a lot of support and that is one of the, the biggest needs. And, and to be honest, we haven't really done that much for it. We've, we've got like an emergency pill for them but it feels like we're not scratch the surface in terms of like the need that's there.
But yeah, that's, that's some of the needs. But then I can talk about like freaking rescue where there's continuously support needed as well and the kids that we see out of education or in condition living in conditions that are not right for anyone and a day having their ongoing need to, to be able to, to do what they do and, and green lights. But the homeless, I feel like the homeless homelessness situation in London or the UK has like, I don't know since COVID has like increased in terms of fights. There's so much, yeah. So much need everywhere.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: How, how do you ralph. Because like I'm listening to you and the needs and the demands and what needs to be done just sounds incredibly heavy and I'm feeling like, oh gosh, like, but how do you like emotionally, spiritually stay focused, stay charged up to be on the front line and do the work that you're doing and guard your heart whilst you're loving and pouring into others?
[00:20:59] Speaker C: Very good question. And I don't think I've figured this out completely because it is, it is hard and it is tough. And yeah, I think I've become a bit more careful in how emotionally evolved I can get with people because I made the mistake of getting two maybe involved and we cannot do everything.
I cannot do everything.
And so I'm trying to see, okay, like what can we do? Yeah, what can we do as a church or as, as an individual? Because even like I think it's everyone that say lives in London, you come across 3, 4, 5 homeless people on your way to work and like are you going to get them all you like £5 or you be spending more of your salary giving out people. But like you can maybe focus on one person or.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:21:57] Speaker C: But I think, I think for me to do stay well and and be perspective is like Jesus at the poor will always be with you. So like they're always going to be a degree of like, yes, this is ongoing, this is not going to stop.
And yes, it feels sometimes too much or too heavy.
But I think as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus, we need to do what we can at certain moments but also surrender to him like some of the Situations like, I cannot solve everybody's homelessness problem or cannot get everybody in a. In a home on the same night.
And I was like, God, I just pray that they have a friend or they have someone that they can go to.
And. And, yeah, just recognizing, I guess, our own limitations, but try to do what we can.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:22:55] Speaker C: And, yeah, I think it's. It's. It's. It's a balance of the team surrendering and doing what. Doing what we can and speaking with people. I think, like, we have a great team. I have a great wife to approach our stuff. And, yeah, just being realistic of our limitations and what we can do.
[00:23:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:23] Speaker C: But it's the same knowing that, okay, I've done what I can. I've referred them to these different organizations or I've given them this. And of course, we try to do as much as we can, but, yeah, the burden is heavy.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:23:42] Speaker C: But. And I think that's the other thing, like, maybe why I'm still here and still in this job is that I think as a church, Hillsong Church, but the wider church, I feel like if everybody plays their part.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:56] Speaker C: A lot could be done, and a lot more can be done than we do now.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:24:02] Speaker C: And I see that, for example, with our community cafe on a Monday where we get 80 to 100 asylum seekers come to our cafe.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:24:13] Speaker C: But we have now about 20 to 30 volunteers between Hillsong and HDB because it's a combined project.
And I think a bit. Been a bit more intentional of, like, okay, I'm not the only person that needs to have all the information, all the solutions, but having more people that can reach out or have conversations or direct them to other places or refer people, and it's like this. There's a lot of other people in our church and in the world that can help out as well. So it's like, we don't have to do this alone. We're doing this together. But I think as a church at large, we can do a lot more still.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: We can.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah. I guess a big one as well is, like, a lot of our listeners probably don't work in the front lines or maybe work in corporate, maybe work in healthcare, like different backgrounds, maybe mums at home looking after their kids. But they do have a. They do have a heart to do something. And, like, you've just beautifully described, like, there is so much to do, but it's easier knowing that we have a whole community that can, you know, get on board. Would you mind maybe just spitting out some practical things that People could do to get involved. Like practical ways people can get involved if they don't have the opportunity to be on the front line as their day to day role.
[00:25:37] Speaker C: I think that's the, the question in itself. I think like we all are on the front line in essence like because yes, I have the privilege of being paid to do what I do.
But we're all, I think as Christians, as followers of Jesus, yes Are on the front line to, to do something however small. You can see the person that is sitting outside the supermarkets, get to know his name and buy them a sandwich or build that relationship with this person or we can all pray for situation in Sudan or.
And the people in our lives that we come across or encourage people. I think, yeah, yeah. I think we're all on the front line in that sense.
And I think social impact is not just about those who are poor, maybe homeless, but also those who are maybe going through a tough time or just your colleague that is seems off or. And just I think yeah. Putting value and worth on people think through an encouragement. So we, I think we can all do that. Of course there's the practical ways of like giving and supporting, contributing which it's part of my job to, to get more of church to, to engage in that. So like yes to sponsorships, yes to regular giving to Fijian rescue or Green Lights or whatever we do. But that's, that's not, I think that's not, that's only a small part of, of being a frontline person and that's. But I think prayer smile.
[00:27:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:19] Speaker C: Getting to know someone's name, I think that can make a difference already.
And I think that's where you get to know what, what other needs might play in this person's lives or what else you could do. And I think it starts with that.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: Ralph, can I ask you what would you want every believer, even non believer to understand about social impact and the gospel and Jesus heart for this?
[00:27:52] Speaker C: Well, I guess that's a few different people. But like I think for every believer it would be that social impact is not optional. I think we're all caught to make an impact, have be able to affect other people's life in a positive way. And I think the Bible's full of it in terms of like doing justice for those oppressed, those who are mistreated, those who are bound, those who are hungry, those who are homeless, those who are strangers. So I think we.
Yeah, for believers I would, I would say that social impact is not optional.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:33] Speaker C: If we are followers of Jesus we should follow in his footsteps and, and he healed the people and he.
Yeah. Supported people and, and saw people and recognize people and.
Yeah, I think that is what I would say in terms of, like, to a Christian audience, I think, for, for, for those who, who are not that.
I guess what we do is to reflect God's heart and to, for them to know that they are God's children, even if they don't recognize or see it that way themselves.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:13] Speaker C: And that God cares for them and he cares for them through us or through Christians, hopefully in the best possible way.
So, yeah, I think that is what I would say in very short.
But it's. And also, like, it's.
It's not just about charity. Again, coming back to what I would say to other Christians or followers of Jesus, it's not just about charity or giving money, self justice, and it's about.
[00:29:46] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:46] Speaker C: Seeing people who are. Yeah. Actually just similar to us. They the same as us and putting.
Pulling value upon them, putting dignity on them and giving them the same opportunities, the same resources and, and as. Yeah. Doing just. Or doing to people who are made in God's image.
[00:30:11] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think I remember reading C.S. lewis's book, maybe Christianity, and then in the early chapters, he talks about, like a moral code. He uses the example of, you know, football. And he said that, you know, whether you want to adhere to the rules of football or not, like, if somebody fouls you, whether you believe in it or not, you'll call out that it's foul. Do you know what I mean? And so he was effectively saying that subconsciously all of us know what is wrong or right.
And when we're on the receiving end of it, we don't like it. But actually, why do we not then project that to others? And I think that effectively is okay. You might not be a Christian, you might not be a person of faith, but actually we all have a level of moral compass within us that we know what's right and what's wrong, what's fair and what's unjust. And actually if we lean into that and do the best that we can to make it a level playing field for everybody, I think that is progress in itself.
[00:31:14] Speaker C: Yeah. 100%. Yeah. No, yeah, totally agree.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: And what would you say in your journey of working in the front lines, being exposed to communities and.
Yeah, just the horrors that we see in this world. What have been your toughest moments and how do you find strength? Strength in God, strength in community. Strengthen your calling and your purpose to continue to stay planted Rooted in this line of work.
[00:31:46] Speaker C: Yeah, some of the toughest moments.
I think definitely one of the toughest moments was when we started this work in, in 2015 and going out to Calais and just encountering. By the time I'd been to India, I've been to Uganda, I'd seen some of, I guess maybe some of the world's more. Yeah poverty stricken areas. But then coming to Calais which is like two and a half hour drive from London, ending up in a place which I think was worse than what I've ever seen in India or in other places.
And just how people were living and just knowing that we in. In yeah between France and the UK in the richest, I guess continental. Some of the richest places in the world basically.
Yeah, the global north and that there's so much money to go around that we're in this place two hours from London.
That is just people living in mud and not having a toilet and not having any like desert was a couple of taps on the floor that they had to use to wash themselves with.
[00:33:07] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:33:08] Speaker C: Just seeing how people were treated there and that it just was just ignored by I think the governments, the.
Yeah, the people in power basically and, and not yeah. Seeing. Yeah people having to go there. So I think that was really tough to see that and, and I think just going back on the road to London. So I suppose I don't know what we're supposed to do or what we can do here because it feels like much bigger than what. What I can do.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: So were these the temporary structures or they used to refer it to as. Was it the jungle?
[00:33:47] Speaker C: This was the jungle and this was a, it was a space I think allocated by French government to say like this is where you can stay. But nothing else was there at the time. Initially when we went there it was just like pellets and toppolin and that was a hut or. And it was like I think around 6000 people were living there at the time when we arrived. And I think at the high point it was about 10,000.
It was a lot of single men but also some women and families and the other women's and children's center. That was a big. Probably a bit better setup to be fair, but it was. Yeah it was the jungle and it was not set up with temporary structures that came in later in 2016.
So it was initially just in the month in an open field in France and just seeing people like live there in the winter in the cold and just, just, just yeah, living that way.
It's just yeah, Crazy to see. And then we're like, I'm not sure what we can do here. There's a lot of people coming here with, like, donations and. Which is good. But then there was a lot of stuff that they didn't need.
So we just started having conversations, organizations there and said, what can we do?
What's the main need? And it was rubbish.
Rubbish was. It was too much rubbish. So it's like, cool, we can solve that. We can bring some bin bags and some pickup things and we start cleaning up. And that's. That's how we started, basically. And then there's many other tough moments. Like, remember one evening.
And this is some of the. Part of the tough. I guess some of the tough.
What I find tough. But it's like people think you have the solution or you can help them, but all kinds of situations, which I don't think I can.
But there was this family, a mom and two young kids. They were sleeping outside in Coridon because they were asylum seekers and they didn't know how to get access to accommodation. Me sleeping outside on the street for a couple of nights already. And I was, like, not sure what to do.
And just like, do we need to take them in? Or like, perhaps like, at the time, not living in a place where that was possible.
What can we do? But, yeah, I think through different phone calls, we're able. But then, yeah, sometimes the. The request or the need that presents itself, it's just like, I have no idea what we're doing or how to respond to this.
And it's all good now. But like, yeah, in that moment, it can be tough. And then I think another tough. I think I was thinking about is like, we're trying to, I guess, support people and help people. And then you give maybe opportunities or suggestions or advice. Yeah. And people go do the opposite thing.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:58] Speaker A: Sounds like my family, Ralph.
[00:37:01] Speaker C: Well, yes, I had an advocate, yes. But I feel like it might be something to get me ready into it. But, like, you say one thing and they do the right opposite thing. It's like, oh, we're trying to help you. But like, in the end, just. Yeah. So I think I had to learn to deal with that. And it's like, okay, despite our good intentions or the work we've done, it's up to people to make their own decisions and how. How they.
How they. Yeah. Live their lives.
And I think another tough thing is people who get refused to stay here.
So, like, maybe they've waited four or five years on their asylum claim and Then being refused and then the options of going back.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:46] Speaker C: To the country of origin, which, as they claim is impossible because they fear for their lives.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:53] Speaker C: Like them being stressed out and just supporting people for that, it's. It's tough.
But. Yeah. How do I find God's strength in all of that?
I think it's just prayer and just putting all. Again, like surrendering to God and it's like not sure what to do, but I can call this person or I can contact this organization and see what they say and just trying to be, I guess, practical about it as well. But also like, okay, God, you're the one in control.
Like, we need a miracle. And generally, like, things have worked out, even if it takes a long time, but it. Yeah.
Is relying that God will have a way and, and praying for. For the situation of people involved.
[00:38:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And how would you say that your understanding of God's heart for people's needs has matured since you've started in this work? Obviously it's been a while now because you've kind of already started in. In a smaller scale, I guess from a university.
But yeah, I guess over time. Have you, have you felt a shift or.
[00:39:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I think so. I think initially, like what I said before, like, I think all people are his children and which they deserve dignity and value and worth. And we're all made in this image, so we should treat people like that. And.
But then also like knowing that these people have not come from.
They're just not dropped out of the sky. They've had their own lives, they had their own experience. So we can also learn from them and we can also, like, take into account what, what they have to say and, and not necessarily as, oh, here, here is a package of this and that and this will help you or this is how you have to do it. But so I think I've come more.
Yeah.
Understanding of my own limitations in that sense and not trying to be the savior or the helper with all the answers.
And I think some things.
There's this book called When Helping Hurts and it's, it's helpful to, to think about, like, what kind of support or what kind of aid or what kind of relief you're providing.
Is it going to actually be helpful in the long term?
So is a handout of, I don't know, clothes the right thing right now or is there giving them something or giving them a cash amount? Is that really going to help them right now or is it something else?
So it's just, I think I've changed my perspective or on how God wants us to, to reach out is that we want to make sure that people are treated with dignity.
That is because people are capable and people are resourceful and people are able to do a lot that they can do themselves. But it's just helping them maybe to see that, help them to get in touch with the right opportunities or organizations. So it's not necessarily always doing for giving out, but maybe saying, okay, we can help you connect to this job opportunity or discourse or this thing that might help you to, to step into your future. So it's more about walking with people rather than doing it for people.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:49] Speaker C: So like going on a journey, and I think that's another thing.
Like, it's.
It's not a task and it's not like it's all about relationships, I think. And when you build relationship or rapport with someone, then you can really speak into the situation in a way that you can't do if you just there to hand out something or to provide a service. So I think what we try to encourage with those on our community cafe projects or football projects, that we just doing the journey with them. Yeah. And I found out of that a lot of other, like, ways to support them, but also to speak into their lives in terms of giving advice or pray or share the gospel with them that I think that comes out of that, out of that relationship.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
Ralph, we've got a book that we're spotlighting in this season, which is Jackie Pullinger's Chasing the Dragon.
And I've come across Jackie on several occasions and she has this amazing quote which is, you know, soft heart, but hard feet.
I'm speaking for myself here, and I know that I get very judgmental when I start, like, reading the news and things that are going on in the world, and it can become quite overwhelming.
And I know you said, like, we can't do everything, but we can do some things. How do you keep your heart soft and not like, angry towards God or angry towards the world and people's choices? Like, how do you keep that malleable so that you can go in every day on the Monday to the community cafe or you'll go, you know, how do you do this?
[00:43:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I hope I keep my heart soft, but sometimes I feel like I have to, especially some of the young guys. I'm like, guys, you need to shake up. And I'm like, a little bit of tough love.
That's good though, might help as well. But I think, like, we, we can't necessarily Always place ourselves in their feet in terms of what they've gone through, the journey that they had, the upbringing. And so as hard as that is to put in their shoes, in another era or another space of time, it could have been me that was on the other side and be in a situation where I didn't have the perspective to, to find a job that could give me a long term sustainability or way of living.
And, and so like, it's.
Yeah, I'm trying to. And I can, I think I can be non judgmental as well in that sense, but I believe it's just. Yeah. Trying to place yourself in, in those other, in the people that we serve. Their feet and trying to see on the shoes.
To see.
Yeah.
From a way that it's like, well, we cannot understand everything what they've gone through.
And, and like, I think God asked us to help. Not necessarily to.
Yeah. Give the whole why or.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:21] Speaker C: Get a whole like, reasoning behind it. But I think it's.
Yeah, it's trying to help. And it's like sometimes I'm like, okay, I've helped you with like getting two or three jobs now and you're still like, not in a, in a proper job, but okay.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:45:37] Speaker C: Let's see what we can learn from this and I'll give you another opportunity. And Jesus didn't give up on us. He. So I think we shouldn't give up on people, however frustrating it might be.
And I think what we do is, I think what we need, what we do is, is we need to do it and just leave it there and not take it personally. And it's like, okay, but I gave you this, this money or I gave you this job. And it's like, in the end, people are people and they have to make their own decisions. They have their own agency to, to decide their life.
Yeah. I think that's how I, I keep going. And I was like, yeah, I cannot take this personally and I've done my best and I've done what I can do. And, and if it ends there, it ends there. But like, so for all the young guys, then I'm like, okay, put you in like two jobs now. It's like you have to really think about what you want, but here's another opportunity, but make sure that you're ready for it.
[00:46:47] Speaker A: This is all preparing you for parenting, Ralph.
[00:46:51] Speaker C: Yeah, you tell me you love.
[00:46:56] Speaker A: It's exciting, it's fun.
[00:46:58] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah.
But yeah, disappointment is part of it, I think.
And yeah, again, people have different, different ways to respond or react And. And we just have to.
Yeah. Deal with it, I think. And if we too caught up in. In what we're doing, then I'm not sure who you're doing it for.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I like what you said. You know, God didn't give up on us.
[00:47:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:27] Speaker A: And so however long we're walking that journey with someone.
[00:47:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:31] Speaker A: We just keep putting our best foot forward. Right.
[00:47:34] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: I think final question for me, and I think T will close this out, which is if you could leave listeners.
A listener, sorry, with one scripture that captures the heart of the work that you do and the ministry that you're involved in, what would it be?
[00:47:54] Speaker C: I'd like free scriptures.
[00:47:56] Speaker A: Oh, go for it. Give us the three.
Give us the three.
[00:48:01] Speaker C: Initially, I wrote down Luke 4, 18:19, where Jesus quotes Isaiah 60:1, verse 1 and 2, and it says, like the Lord, the spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me to bring good news to the pure poor. He sent me to proclaim, captives will be released, blind will see oppressed will be set free and announce year of jubilee. Basically. And I chose that one because I feel like we're all anointed. Like I said before, we're all like purpose and we all frontline workers in that sense. And if we believe in Jesus, then his spirit is within us.
So that anointing to bring good news to the poor, to set. Kept us free to. To help the blind, help the oppressed, that is up. Yeah. That's upon us. Then secondly, Matthew 25 and around verse 35 and 36 and after that. But where it says, where Jesus says, like, for when you saw me hungry, you fed me. When you found me Thursday, you gave me a drink. When I had no place to stay, you invited me in, and I was poorly clothed, you covered me. When I was sick, you tenderly care for me. And when I was in prison, you visited me. So again, like it's.
It. Yeah. Shows that we need to care for those around us, care for those in our community, and yeah.
Be out there in terms of like, caring and having impact on a society.
And I think, lastly, Isaiah 58, I think is key for any social impact work that we do. And something I go back to regularly to, I guess, remind myself of why we're doing what we're doing, but also to stand on a promise that God says he will refresh us if we do this and he will give us strength.
And it's SI58, it says like, similar to like what Luke 4 was saying, like, remove the heavy chains of oppression. Stop exploiting your workers.
Set free to crush them and mistreated. Break off every yoke of bondage. Share your food with the hungry. Provide for the homeless and bring them into your name, into your home and clothe the naked again.
And then it says like, you'll be refreshed like a everlasting tree or something like that. But I didn't write it down. But. So don't quote me on that, but.
And your light will shine forth. And so like, okay, this is what God is asking us to do as being sold in light in this, in this world.
And yes, we can be all about the gospel and we need to be all about the gospel, but if we don't have the actions, if we don't have the care for the people around us, I think that that message is not going to land.
[00:50:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:50] Speaker A: Come on, Ralph. There's a, there's a preach right there.
Love it. Love it.
[00:50:58] Speaker B: Well, thank you so, so much, Ralph. Thank you for sharing your story and your heart with us today. I think it's just been so encouraging to hear especially how we can be practical with our faith in this regard as well.
[00:51:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:51:15] Speaker B: And take a step further than just believing. But actually, yeah, taking actions. So it's been amazing. Really, really appreciate you having here.
I think it's a good reminder for all of us as well that like, it's not an option, it's not a job that certain people have. We are all called to, to do this. We all called to be the hands and feet of Jesus. Every believer has a role to play.
And so it's been really good to hear your insights and your story and just to have you pour into all of us as well and encourage us on what we can, can do going forward.
I did have a verse to end on as well, just Isaiah 1:17 and in this verse it says, learn to do good, seek justice, help the oppressed, defend the cause of the orphans, fight for the rights of the widows. And here it obviously touches on a few, it seems specific areas. But what I guess the verse is trying to say is that like we do need to be the hands of feet in every, you know, aspect of our lives that we can.
And there are so many opportunities in our day to day. Like you've mentioned before, that it's sometimes just a smile, sometimes just a prayer, just listening to a person in our community, but like finding the way to just be Jesus in our sphere, wherever that may be. I think that is probably my biggest takeaway from this session. So.
[00:52:43] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you thank you so much.
And if I have a dinner party, I know who chief dishwasher is.
[00:52:50] Speaker C: Oh, yes. I'm happy to come wash your dishes.
As long as I get some of the food.
[00:52:57] Speaker A: Absolutely. Jim will feed you.
[00:52:59] Speaker C: Perfect.
[00:53:01] Speaker A: Thank you. Ralph. Thank you so much.
[00:53:03] Speaker C: Thank you. And thank you for putting on this podcast and encouraging people to. Yeah. Follow Jesus ways.
[00:53:10] Speaker A: Thank you. See you soon. Thank you.
[00:53:12] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:53:13] Speaker B: See you next time. Bye.
[00:53:15] Speaker C: Bye.
